Comments on: The Safety Of Programs http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/ Theory is nice, but we are working in practice... Thu, 05 Nov 2009 02:27:30 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: Steven Kimmi http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-509 Steven Kimmi Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:56:19 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-509 I write this comment while all my students are staring into computer screens, taking midyear assessments to see what I need to teach them before the big test. I'll be honest, last year I used a "program". Not for ease of planning, in fact it made me almost sick to use the plans they had developed, much of it I changed during instruction. Our state developed the program for us to use, so all state schools would make AYP. They called it BAIP, Blending Assessment with Instruction Program. Each lesson was tested-indicator-specific. Each lesson was written and developed by a teacher from somewhere in the state. So why did I use it? Coverage. I spent the entire first semester NOT teaching to the test, and getting concerned looks for it. I knew it would come back to haunt me if my students didn't make it. So I pushed it off for as long as I thought I could. About six weeks before the test we started using the program. We made AYP, by a pretty good margin. Did this have anything to do with the program, I don't really think so. So there's another reason for using programs. Being able to divert some blame when it comes to not making it. I write this comment while all my students are staring into computer screens, taking midyear assessments to see what I need to teach them before the big test. I’ll be honest, last year I used a “program”. Not for ease of planning, in fact it made me almost sick to use the plans they had developed, much of it I changed during instruction. Our state developed the program for us to use, so all state schools would make AYP. They called it BAIP, Blending Assessment with Instruction Program. Each lesson was tested-indicator-specific. Each lesson was written and developed by a teacher from somewhere in the state.

So why did I use it? Coverage. I spent the entire first semester NOT teaching to the test, and getting concerned looks for it. I knew it would come back to haunt me if my students didn’t make it. So I pushed it off for as long as I thought I could. About six weeks before the test we started using the program. We made AYP, by a pretty good margin. Did this have anything to do with the program, I don’t really think so.

So there’s another reason for using programs. Being able to divert some blame when it comes to not making it.

]]> By: Brian Crosby http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-500 Brian Crosby Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:17:26 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-500 Leah - What you describe is what gives technology use in schools a bad rep. Without knowing the exact situation it is hard to comment on. We have some students in a program called Read 180. I'm not thrilled with it in general, but I have 2 students that do pretty well on it and they feel it helps them (their scores have gone up consistently) ... but that is not the bulk of their reading instruction thank goodness - they do 30 minutes 4 times a week during our RTI block ... that is their prescribed intervention. However, this is not best use of technology in schools ... and I hope you know that and seek out other activities teachers are doing that are valuable ... things other than programs. As you mentioned Read 180 is a Research-based program ... so the school is "safe" using it and can also cite it as one of the ways we effectively integrate technology at our school. Ugg! Leah – What you describe is what gives technology use in schools a bad rep. Without knowing the exact situation it is hard to comment on. We have some students in a program called Read 180. I’m not thrilled with it in general, but I have 2 students that do pretty well on it and they feel it helps them (their scores have gone up consistently) … but that is not the bulk of their reading instruction thank goodness – they do 30 minutes 4 times a week during our RTI block … that is their prescribed intervention. However, this is not best use of technology in schools … and I hope you know that and seek out other activities teachers are doing that are valuable … things other than programs. As you mentioned Read 180 is a Research-based program … so the school is “safe” using it and can also cite it as one of the ways we effectively integrate technology at our school. Ugg!

]]> By: Leah http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-498 Leah Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:26:59 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-498 I am currently doing my student teaching and like Katherine, have learned about RTI, but haven't really seen much. In my placement right now, it is required to have the students be plugged into a certain reading program on the computer for so many minutes a week. This program for some of the students is a joke, they just click around until the get the correct answer and never progress because they cannot pass the final test to move up a level. These students are so frustrated because it has become a contest to see who is the highest. And its just kindergarten! I understand these programs are supported by research and that they help students and show progress, but every time I plug a kid on this program, I feel like I'm letting down the student or passing the buck to something that I know won't do as good of a job as I could. I could help these kid so much more than a computer that doesn't know the student or their real needs. But what can you do? Tell your principal "I'm not doing it" I am currently doing my student teaching and like Katherine, have learned about RTI, but haven’t really seen much. In my placement right now, it is required to have the students be plugged into a certain reading program on the computer for so many minutes a week.
This program for some of the students is a joke, they just click around until the get the correct answer and never progress because they cannot pass the final test to move up a level. These students are so frustrated because it has become a contest to see who is the highest. And its just kindergarten!
I understand these programs are supported by research and that they help students and show progress, but every time I plug a kid on this program, I feel like I’m letting down the student or passing the buck to something that I know won’t do as good of a job as I could. I could help these kid so much more than a computer that doesn’t know the student or their real needs. But what can you do? Tell your principal “I’m not doing it”

]]> By: Brian Crosby http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-495 Brian Crosby Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:45:36 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-495 Good to know we're not alone in this (not that I really thought we were). I think many of us have been lulled into thinking that the worst is over, but obviously even though we don't hear about NCLB as much, what was set in motion continues even without guidance from the top. The bureaucrats were given their marching orders and no one has given them orders to stop marching, and they won't until new orders are given. Uggg! Good to know we’re not alone in this (not that I really thought we were). I think many of us have been lulled into thinking that the worst is over, but obviously even though we don’t hear about NCLB as much, what was set in motion continues even without guidance from the top. The bureaucrats were given their marching orders and no one has given them orders to stop marching, and they won’t until new orders are given. Uggg!

]]> By: MrTeach http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-493 MrTeach Wed, 26 Nov 2008 00:12:04 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-493 I feel your pain. My school hasn't gone that over the top, but last year our 4th grade math and reading scores weren't very good, that class is now at my level. The principal and curriculum director are starting to freak out wondering whether the low scores are following this group or if they will see them again in the grade below me. This has led to the mention of different "interventions", nothing in practice yet. After reading this, I'm bracing myself for what I may be looking at in the future. I feel your pain. My school hasn’t gone that over the top, but last year our 4th grade math and reading scores weren’t very good, that class is now at my level. The principal and curriculum director are starting to freak out wondering whether the low scores are following this group or if they will see them again in the grade below me. This has led to the mention of different “interventions”, nothing in practice yet. After reading this, I’m bracing myself for what I may be looking at in the future.

]]> By: Bill Ferriter http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-492 Bill Ferriter Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:55:31 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-492 Hey Brian, Great bit---and one that really resonates with me. Even working in a low-poverty school, I struggle with collecting, manipulating and reporting results. It's a labor intensive process in the best of places. In high poverty schools, it could be crippling. And the effect here is the same as it is in your school---I spend less time grading, planning and providing feedback and more time entering data into spreadsheets. Until we automate the process of collecting data---and until we set priorities on the kinds of data that we want to collect---we're going to be crushed. I like Gladwell's research in Blink that talks about the fact that the most successful people in industry are those who can figure out what to ignore---versus our approach in education, which centers on figuring out what else we can study! Rock on, Bill PS...Sounds like your school needs to become one big convergence device, huh? Bringing together the dozens of little programs into one would be a good starting place for improvement. Hey Brian,

Great bit—and one that really resonates with me. Even working in a low-poverty school, I struggle with collecting, manipulating and reporting results. It’s a labor intensive process in the best of places. In high poverty schools, it could be crippling.

And the effect here is the same as it is in your school—I spend less time grading, planning and providing feedback and more time entering data into spreadsheets.

Until we automate the process of collecting data—and until we set priorities on the kinds of data that we want to collect—we’re going to be crushed.

I like Gladwell’s research in Blink that talks about the fact that the most successful people in industry are those who can figure out what to ignore—versus our approach in education, which centers on figuring out what else we can study!

Rock on,
Bill

PS…Sounds like your school needs to become one big convergence device, huh? Bringing together the dozens of little programs into one would be a good starting place for improvement.

]]> By: alicemercer http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-491 alicemercer Mon, 24 Nov 2008 02:35:49 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-491 I'm in a school doing RTI, but at a different stage otherwise. At the same time we're doing that, we're devolving our instruction away from our scripted reading program. The Reading First money will be running out soon, the specialists are disappearing, the assessment (which sucked) is not required for upper grade. I'm on our school SST team, so I can see we are about to run into trouble in that we don't have assessment we are replacing them with, assessment that's required, and should take place. I referenced this in a piece on assessment <a href="http://mizmercer.edublogs.org/2008/11/22/romancing-the-quantifiable/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I’m in a school doing RTI, but at a different stage otherwise. At the same time we’re doing that, we’re devolving our instruction away from our scripted reading program. The Reading First money will be running out soon, the specialists are disappearing, the assessment (which sucked) is not required for upper grade. I’m on our school SST team, so I can see we are about to run into trouble in that we don’t have assessment we are replacing them with, assessment that’s required, and should take place.
I referenced this in a piece on assessment here.

]]> By: jgandee http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-490 jgandee Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:16:12 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-490 I feel your pain!!! I agree that data is a wonderful tool to drive your instruction BUT. . .you have to get to the instruction! It seems to me we assess more than we actually teach. Or, sometimes the assessments take a long time to complete and then instruction time is cut. I am not sure what the answer is, but I feel like I assess way more than I teach! Jen I feel your pain!!! I agree that data is a wonderful tool to drive your instruction BUT. . .you have to get to the instruction! It seems to me we assess more than we actually teach. Or, sometimes the assessments take a long time to complete and then instruction time is cut. I am not sure what the answer is, but I feel like I assess way more than I teach!

Jen

]]> By: Brian Crosby http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-489 Brian Crosby Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:21:12 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-489 Hi Katherine: Yes, having data is good. And yes, data is good to have to show parents how a child is doing, issues or not - in fact I believe it is better than a report card of grades that don't really show what a student can and can't do ... but just show GENERALLY how they are doing - but that is another subject. What I am describing above is an avalanche of data, much of which is of dubious value. Professional Learning Communities thrive on specific data that can be used to chart what a class and individual students understand and don't understand so you can make informed decisions about what to do next ... who needs help and who needs enrichment for example. We are collecting data for other people so they can write reports basically ... and to see how a program is doing or who knows? It is too much, it doesn't inform instruction and takes away from quality planning and discussion. As far as your comment about programmed learning as opposed to planning ... yes I agree. It is one of the biggest issues with NCLB. It takes the "art" out of teaching. Good teachers develop lessons like an artist. Take that away and the job becomes something some no longer wish to have as a profession. Hope that helps! Brian Hi Katherine: Yes, having data is good. And yes, data is good to have to show parents how a child is doing, issues or not – in fact I believe it is better than a report card of grades that don’t really show what a student can and can’t do … but just show GENERALLY how they are doing – but that is another subject.

What I am describing above is an avalanche of data, much of which is of dubious value. Professional Learning Communities thrive on specific data that can be used to chart what a class and individual students understand and don’t understand so you can make informed decisions about what to do next … who needs help and who needs enrichment for example.

We are collecting data for other people so they can write reports basically … and to see how a program is doing or who knows? It is too much, it doesn’t inform instruction and takes away from quality planning and discussion.

As far as your comment about programmed learning as opposed to planning … yes I agree. It is one of the biggest issues with NCLB. It takes the “art” out of teaching. Good teachers develop lessons like an artist. Take that away and the job becomes something some no longer wish to have as a profession.

Hope that helps!
Brian

]]> By: Katherine http://inpractice.edublogs.org/2008/11/15/the-safety-of-programs/comment-page-1/#comment-488 Katherine Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:56:18 +0000 http://inpractice.edublogs.org/?p=100#comment-488 As a certification student (currently student teaching), I've found your blog to be very thought provoking. One of the issues that my fellow cohort members and I have had problems with is the "over programming" of curriculum. One of the major portions of student teaching is learning how to write lesson plans and teaching them to students. It's not easy when the curriculum is dictated to you. From the outside I can see where someone might think "great, I don't have to do it myself." On the other hand, it leaves no room for innovation or accommodation. Since I have only seen RTI in theory and not practice, my thoughts on it may be a little pollyanna. I see where data needs to be collected before a child is brought in to the system. Won't it help keep a child from being mislabeled? Doesn't it help to have that documentation when having to talk to a parent about possible educational issues their child may have? As a certification student (currently student teaching), I’ve found your blog to be very thought provoking. One of the issues that my fellow cohort members and I have had problems with is the “over programming” of curriculum. One of the major portions of student teaching is learning how to write lesson plans and teaching them to students. It’s not easy when the curriculum is dictated to you. From the outside I can see where someone might think “great, I don’t have to do it myself.” On the other hand, it leaves no room for innovation or accommodation.

Since I have only seen RTI in theory and not practice, my thoughts on it may be a little pollyanna. I see where data needs to be collected before a child is brought in to the system. Won’t it help keep a child from being mislabeled? Doesn’t it help to have that documentation when having to talk to a parent about possible educational issues their child may have?

]]>